It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 20:09

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: 4g63bt Cyclone manifold
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 13:08 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
Ok i am going to try to explain this best i can
Does anyone know if the vac solenoid that operates the control butterflys for the manifold that changes the length of the manifold (how it was explained to me) has to be connected or is it right to leave disconnected and lock or wired the butterfly into place into place.
I am talking about the 4g63bt cyclone manifold.
I know i'm vague but i have been asked the question and am trying to find out the answer.
Thanks


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 14:08 
Offline
This forum is my life
This forum is my life
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2006, 00:35
Posts: 3644
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Gender: Male
Your car: DOHC 2.3 VR4 85 AB GSR
Immaculate Stock 86 AC GSR
I had mine hooked up to the manifold via a one way valve.......that way on idle the butterflies are closed and when on boost they will open normally without blowing the diaphram.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 14:33 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
Ok i thought you would understand what i was talking about
Bitza
So am i right in thinking that under vacum it holds the flaps closed ?
And under acceleration the suck of the engine opens them up ?
You've helped me out again
Thanks m8


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 06 Oct 2011, 14:51 
Offline
This forum is my life
This forum is my life
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2006, 00:35
Posts: 3644
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Gender: Male
Your car: DOHC 2.3 VR4 85 AB GSR
Immaculate Stock 86 AC GSR
Yes, yes and yes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2011, 17:12 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
Bitza wrote:
I had mine hooked up to the manifold via a one way valve.......that way on idle the butterflies are closed and when on boost they will open normally without blowing the diaphram.


How does that work, you need pressure to escape? I have heard that that you can replace the vacuum diaphragm with a small wastegaste actuator. You hook it up to the manifold, this allows you to have better bottom end and top end power. Closed on vacuum and open on boost. Where as if you just you replace your manifold with a n/a galant, you will loose bottom and just gain top end..

I got suggested to do this by a dyno tuning that has seen results from it on a VR4 Starion. I will do this when i have a chance.

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 14:40 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
The info below i found on the dsmtuners forum, the link is http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/318644-here-how-my-cyclone-manifold-will-activated-2.html


Just saw this thread and have some valuable comments. I have been running the cyclone intakes with T25 mod for 3-4 years. The picture in post 1 looks like my work. I run this setup on both 20g and 35r cars. The cyclone is an amazing piece of hardware. It works virtually the same as Mivec does on the evo 9. You dont hear too many people wanting to get rid of the Mivec on evo forums? Of course not. Because it works fantastic as does the dual runner manifold. The cyclone makes very noticeable gains in both torque and turbo spool. It is not the restriction people think it is. My 35r made over 600whp and pulls hard to 8000rpm on 2.3 engine. A 50 trim or 35r turbo will spool 4-500 rpm faster on the cyclone. that is nothing to sneeze at. I cant get around not using them when I put a car together. there is nothing that works quite so well for so little money and effort.

I am not sure if I was the first to do the T25 actuator mod but I find it the most practical reliable method of using the manifold with a few minor drawbacks. The t25 actuator starts to open the butterflies at 14psi. They will not be fully open till 24psi. This is because as the actuator compresses the spring inside compresses as well and it takes more boost to over come the shorter and shorter spring. I use the original hole on the butterfly arm. You might be able to drill a hole inside of that to make them fully open sooner. as the travel for actuator would be less. The crossover point for the manifold is 4100 rpm when controlled by the ecu. This means that above 4100 the manifold makes more power with all runners open. below that rpm the manifold makes more power with all runners closed. But what about when runners are half open? doesnt matter because the factory controlled method snaps them open at 4100. The t25 method progressively opens the flys. I have not dynoed to try and show what happens when they are half open. To determine where ideal open point is you simply dyno with runners closed then dyno with them open. Then just use the point were the graphs cross as you ideal open point. If you added a third pull with runners half open you might find the graph to be higher at the cross point. not sure.

So lets just say the ideal open point is 4100rpm. So from that ideal turbo needs to see 24psi at or below 4100 rpm. If turbo sees less than 24psi after 4100 rpm the performance will suffer as the runners will not be fully open. This is an important point as a 16g will typically not hold 24psi at redline. a 20g barely does. larger turbos clearly have no problem. But clearly if you plan to run less than 24psi this method is not for you.

If your turbo is seeing 24psi before 4100 rpm that is great. the performance of all 8 runners is at least as good as stock manifold so no performance is lost if you see 24psi at 3800rpm. You would still be getting the faster spool and low end torque increases.

My 35r turbo setup sees 25psi very near 4100 rpm. full 35psi at 4700 makes 600whp at 5500rpm. The manifold just plain works in the setup. It has devastating quick hard hitting power band in every gear.

Both my cars use the 7 bolt head. epoxy is used to fill runner transition.



Image

Image

Image

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 15:08 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
Bitza wrote:
I had mine hooked up to the manifold via a one way valve.......that way on idle the butterflies are closed and when on boost they will open normally without blowing the diaphram.


Hey sorry Andrew i just found this on another site, is this how you have yours setup??? I am trying to see what is the best and easiest way to have the dual rail working.
http://www.lilevo.com/mirage/Cyclone%20intake%20system/gvr4cyclone.htm

The JDM Cyclone ECU has functionality installed to control the secondaries that is not present in the US ECU. The simple option is to plumb the butterflies straight to manifold vacuum so that they open proportional to the throttle opening. While this does work, it doesn't exploit the benefit of keeping the secondaries closed and keep the intake velocity up until the turbo is making significant airflow, maximizing bottom and lower midrange power. So at what point should the secondaries open? Rumors say that the JDM ECU opens the secondaries at ~8psi boost. Ken is sure that it has to be much higher than 3000 rpm. In either case, the optimal switch point will vary a bit depending on turbo and exhaust size and overall engine volumetric efficiency. The setup described here is an adjustable boost-pressure based system that will allow the user to tweak the system to best operation for their engine.
Parts Needed

So what do we need to assemble this Cyclone controller?
Cyclone white vacuum canister
or any one-way vacuum reservoir
Normally Closed [NC] pressure switch [NAPA part# BK7011576]
or Hobbs Normally Open [NO] pressure switch [NAPA part# BK7011575]
Normally Open + Closed solenoid [DSM purge solenoid]
~3ft 4mm vacuum hose
vacuum tees
vacuum hose clamps [opt]
misc wiring
Theory

The white vacuum canister is a reservoir with a one way valve. This is absolutely essential to operation since the reservoir damps the butterfly responses to the variable engine vacuum, greatly smoothing their response. This way the butterflies open slowly, not snapping open. This smooths the transition from single to dual runner operation and avoids "hiccups" in the airflow. It seems like the system needs about 6-8in vacuum to keep the butterflies closed. Plumbing the diaphragm directly to the manifold seems to cause surging at times. The Hobbs pressure switch is adjustable, so you can play with the boost pressure level needed to open the secondaries. The Hobbs switch specified above is set for 4psi, but can be adjusted from ~3-10psi.
In a pure sense, here is what the control system diagram looks like.


And plumbed using the purge control solenoid. The purge solenoid is a two way solenoid. When unpowered, the air flows from the top to the rear nipple under the electrical connector. When powered, the air flows from the top to the front nipple where the vent cover is. Please note that the direction of the purge solenoid does matter.


NOTE: If there is a power connection problem the above diagram will default to direct manifold control of the secondaries. It is possible to reduce the cost of the system by switching the Hobbs type from NC to NO and reversing the purge solenoid direction which will switch the two solenoids - NO on the vacuum reservoir line, and NC on the direct butterfly line. Either setup will have equivalent performance and operation when working correctly. However, in a situation where the Hobbs switch is an NO-type, if the power connection is lost the default operation will be primary runners only since the vacuum reservoir will pull the secondaries closed. This will cause a flow restriction at higher boost/rpm since the secondaries will never open. The only advantage of the Hobbs NO setup is cost, as the NC Hobbs switch is ~$15 more than the NO version.

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 18:04 
Offline
This forum is my life
This forum is my life
User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2006, 00:35
Posts: 3644
Location: Adelaide South Australia
Gender: Male
Your car: DOHC 2.3 VR4 85 AB GSR
Immaculate Stock 86 AC GSR
The pics don't work.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 21:35 
Offline
1800 CORDIA
1800 CORDIA
User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2006, 13:40
Posts: 1093
Location: Melbourne
Your car: UFO
What wrong with the factory valve? It is an actuator also.

_________________
|VR4 4G63 RS|MicroTech lt8s|Ported TD06sl2-25g|Ported & Polished Head|HKS Front Mount|3" Exhaust|
|Coilovers|Swaybars|VR-4 2pot Calipers|TP rears|Evo3 Master/Booster|Evo 3 front bar|Side Skirts|Rear Lip|


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2011, 22:33 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
I believe there is nothing wrong with using the factory one with what I have read. But if you are not running the standard ECU, you need a one way vacuum reservoir, solenoid and pressure switch. Or you can run wastegate actuator which just requires a vacuum line. That is my understanding...

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2011, 08:20 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
Lmao what to do what, should i shouldn't I ahhhhhhhhhh oh well there must be a way. i reckon a one way valve would work in theory as when the engine comes on boost it would pressurise the manifold enough that the flaps would open themselves, or i am hopeing anyways. Looks like it has been overlooked by alot of people with aftermarket computers.
I am now wondering in which position would it be better to run in probably with flaps open as it's not like a cordia needs anymore low down torque anyhow as it already rips the tires to pieces if you accelerate tohard


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2011, 13:47 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
Here are some diagrams i have found of setups with the factory actuator from other forums. Can't find any pics but... Any chance you could put up a pic of your setup Bitza?

Image

Image

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2011, 12:02 
Offline
1800 CORDIA
1800 CORDIA

Joined: 10 Sep 2003, 19:16
Posts: 1264
It is unlikely that the valves can be forced open by boost pressure, as the back side of the valve is open to the intake port so it has pressure acting on it. The pressure difference between the front and back side of the valve would only be small. The sensible way to set it up, is to have the valves open at a certain rpm like Mitsubishi intended. Most aftermarket ECU's have auxiliary outputs that can be set to switch at rpm or voltage.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2011, 19:08 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
coop1er wrote:
It is unlikely that the valves can be forced open by boost pressure, as the back side of the valve is open to the intake port so it has pressure acting on it. The pressure difference between the front and back side of the valve would only be small. The sensible way to set it up, is to have the valves open at a certain rpm like Mitsubishi intended. Most aftermarket ECU's have auxiliary outputs that can be set to switch at rpm or voltage.

So how is yours setup would be good to see and what sort computer do you have ? I am sure that my computer has auxilarys for nos foggers and the like i may be able to rig something up.
Pics would be good


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2011, 22:21 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
Ok i used this picture and this link http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/article ... ifold.html to get it going i have used an auxilary output from my EMS computer set like a shift light but activates my valve instead easy as good idea coop i have set my secondarys to open at 3950rpm for now but will play around with that for best results.
From what i can see you don't want boost going into the butterfly acutator you just want to vent the suction that you have created and is held by the one way valve, as soon as it vents the suction the flaps snap straight open i have already checked it and it works and snaps open at 3950rpm and closes again once it drops below 3950rpm.
Thanks for the help guys


Attachments:
Cyclone Mani Diagram.JPG
Cyclone Mani Diagram.JPG [ 60.38 KiB | Viewed 17857 times ]
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2011, 22:58 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
And does it snapping open cause it to hiccup or run rough?? Are going to fit the canister?

Pics???

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2011, 23:58 
Offline
Superuser
Superuser
User avatar

Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 21:06
Posts: 118
Location: Coffs Harbour(woolgoolga)
Gender: Male
Your car: 1984 AA cordia VR4 coversion, 3 inch exhaust, 3 inch intercooler with 2.5 inch pipes and tdo5h 20g Turbo, EMS computer, 650cc injectors, Bosch 910 Fuel pump
No it runs great, and the canister is only used because it is a oneway valve which i just used a normal one way valve same thing if you read the link i posted it says canister/oneway valve you notice it is smoother down low and accelerates harder right through


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2011, 07:05 
Offline
Cordia Guru
Cordia Guru
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 05:16
Posts: 395
Location: sydney
Ahhh, ok I understand. I misread.

Sweet, congrats :D sounds like a good setup!

_________________
Image

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2541897


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 10 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron



Connect with Cordia Power on Facebook. Cordia Power 2000-2020. Cordia Forum powered by phpBB.