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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2011, 00:37 
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The w5m33 is a strong box, there are differences between the vr4, gsr and evo boxs but the cc gsr box will have more than adequate strenght. The one I'm getting will have a few evo parts in it.. much nicer to drive than the old cordia box, can't wait!

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PostPosted: 16 Jul 2011, 23:29 
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The f5m33 also known as a km215 is fwd turbo gearbox fitted to 3000gt, eclipses, and the australian tr-ts v6 magna..

This is what I think 5th sin has fitted and really what I should be getting I think, but I'm already commited to the w5m33 box.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 09:19 
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Ok, money wise i think it would have been much better going a F5M33... here is some info anyway from a very knowledgeable person from the other mitsubishi forums. He is helping me build up a box for the car.



GEARBOX RATIOS EXPLAINED

(finally found it after months it has been missing from the forum. For some reason the search couldnt find this earlier version from September 2004, so I've reposted all the good bits below )

AWD GALANT VR4 and GSR LANCER RATIOS:
The VR4 and GSR gearbox share some of the same gear ratios believe it or not except for first and final gear. Look at the difference between the 'final' ratios (number of times the motor needs to turn [driveshaft turns] in order to make the axle/wheels do one full rotation).

The drop in first gear ratio is why the VR4 gearbox isnt really suited for performance applications as its slower off the mark and purposely made to pull a heavier car up to speed (although some people prefer the lower ratio for less wheel spin on take off e.g. FWD's, or people having difficulty getting power to the ground on high RPM take off). The final drive for the VR4 is basically for cruising around at low revs at speed.

Here is a comparison...

VR4 - 2.846; 1.684 (2nd); 1.115 (3rd); 0.833 (4th); 0.666 (5th); 3.166 (Reverse); 3.866 (Front Diff); 4.9333 (Final)
GSR (W5M33) - 2.916; 1.684 (2nd); 1.115 (3rd); 0.833 (4th); 0.666 (5th); 3.166 (Reverse); 4.933 (Final)
Also GSR (W5M33) - Transfer 1.090; 3.866 (Front Diff); 4.9333 (Final)

VR4 transfer case input spline count = 22 (You will need a 1.090 VR4 transfer case when using a VR4 gearbox as its the only transfer case to suit the gearbox output shaft's spline count)
GSR transfer case input spline count = 23 (You can mix and match a GSR gearbox with a GSR or EVO I-II 1.090 transfer case only)

I think this explains it well...

Going to a lower (numerically higher) gear will increase your RPMs at a given speed but improve your off the line performance. A higher (numerically lower) gear will get you off the line slower but keep your RPMs lower at a given speed.

Changing your tires will also affect the "effective" gear ratio. A taller tyre/wheel combo than stock will have the effect of going to a higher gear i.e. 17" rims. A lower gear counteracts the taller tyre/wheel combo to a degree. Ever wondered why drag cars have such high profile tyres? Wink

Easy way to remember: High number, high RPMs, high "kick". Low number, low RPMs, low "kick".

CD5A LANCER GSR RS
It is apparent that the CD5A 92-95 "LANCER GSR RS 1.8 AWD" was optioned from factory with a viscous and a mechanical 3.545 rear LSD. One of my friends in NZ just checked an import Lancer GSR which has one of the rare factory optioned NRWE front viscous LSD gearboxes in it and upon inspection of the rear diff he confirmed that it has a 3.545 mechancial rear LSD centre. He also did some more searching and apparently the part number for the LSD plates was actually used in some CD5As and CC4A Mirages, so it can be established that the CD5A LANCER GSR RS's did have both a viscous and mechancial rear LSD as an option from factory and are very rare. NOTE: not to be confused that it was an option on EVO 1-3's as discussed below.

_________________________________________________

EVO I-III RATIOS:

Info I've gathered and discovered over time and summarised below.

TRANSFER CASES:
* VR4 gearbox + VR4 transfer case input spline count = 22 (You will need a 1.090 VR4 transfer case when using a VR4 gearbox as its the only transfer case to suit the gearbox output shaft's spline count) = 3.545 rear diff ratio result. NOTE: VR4 EVO have a 23 spline count therefore refer to below GSR stats.
* GSR gearbox + GSR transfer case input spline count = 23 (You can mix and match a GSR gearbox with a GSR or EVO I-II 1.090 transfer case only) = 3.545 rear diff ratio result
* EVO I-II gearbox + EVO I-II transfer case input spline count= 23 (You can mix and match EVO I-II gearbox with GSR or EVO I-II 1.090 transfer cases only) = 3.909 rear diff ratio result
* EVO III gearbox + EVO III transfer case input spline count = 23 (You MUST USE the EVO III 1.074 transfer case with the EVO III gearbox only as it corrects the ratio to accept a 3.909 rear diff) = 3.909 rear diff ratio result

REAR DIFFS:
* First thing's first. All EVO I-III rear diff ratios are 3.909. All EVO I-III RS/GSR had a rear mechancial LSD diff centre, except the EVO 1 GSR which had a viscious LSD rear centre with different length rear driveshaft cups and shafts.
* If you are using an EVO III gearbox, YOU MUST also use an EVO III transfer case to correct the rear ratio to 3.909 - this will suit any of the EVO I-III 3.909 rear diffs.
* To make an EVO rear mech LSD a ratio of 3.545 to suit a E39A Galant VR4 or GSR 3.545 gearbox - Simply keep your existing GSR or VR4 rear diff housing, remove the diff centre and remove the 3.545 crown wheel and pinion from it. Get an EVO rear mech LSD centre, and transfer your 3.545 crown wheel and pinion into it. The replaced parts will NEED to be done by a professional as they need to setup the backlash and tooth contact correctly. If its a tiny bit off you're screwed. This can then go back into your existing housing and your existing axles can plug straight in.
__________________________________________________

The gear ratios are on lancerregister.com under 'evo 1-3 buyers guide'
Here they are anyway:

EVO I:
2.571 (1st)
1.600
1.160
0.862
0.617 (5th)
Rear diff: 3.909

EVO II-III: (EVO III has slightly different transfer and front diff ratio)
2.750 (1st)
1.684
1.160
0.862
0.617 (5th)
Rear diff: 3.909

GSR: (CD5A)
2.917 (1st)
1.684
1.115
0.833
0.666 (5th)
Rear diff: 3.545


EVO I-III gearbox ratios etc:

1st & 5th use the same single piece syncros
2nd gear uses the same double (3 piece) syncro
3rd & 4th on Evo 1 box use single syncros. (same P/N as 5th gear syncro)
3rd & 4th on Evo 2/3 box use double syncros & these will NOT fit a vr4, GSR, or Evo 1 gearbox without machine work to the gears.

Evo 1 has taller 1st & 2nd gear resulting in closer ratio gears especially 2nd-3rd gap
Evo 2/3 however have double syncros & a stronger hub on 3rd & 4th gear

Evo 3 box has exact same gear ratios & syncros as Evo 2 but with a slightly taller final drive & different transfer ratio which requires the Evo 3 transfer case to correct it for 3.909. EVO3 = 63 teeth crownwheel and 15 tooth output pinion, mated to a 1.074 transfer case which corrects the rear diff ratio to 3.909.

EVO 2/3 boxes are same internally. The only difference is EVO2 uses same front diff ratio as EVO1 being 64 tooth crownwheel with 15 tooth output pinion (4.264) for use with 1.090 transfer case ratio = 3.909 rear diff ratio.

A smaller number for gear ratio, (Like Evo 1 1st & 2nd) means they are taller: Less torque at the wheels but more speed for a given rpm.

A larger number (Evo final drive) means it is shorter: More torque to the wheels but less speed for a given rpm.

Power at the wheels does not change significantly with different gear ratios



I have also got some info on EVO/GSR/VR4 diff and transfer case ratios below which I got from NZ MMC:

VR4s and GSRs:
1.090 Transfer ratio (TR) (24/22)
3.867 (58/15) front diff ratio. (FDR)
3.545 (39/11) Rear diff ratio (RDR)
RDR x TR = 3.866 combined rear final drive
Total final Drive ratio TFD of 4.9333

EVO 1 and 2s:
1.090 (24/22) TR
4.266 (64/15) FDR
3.909 (43/11) RDR
RDR x TR 1.090 (24/22) = 4.264 combined rear final drive
TFD = 5.443

EVO 3
1.074 TR (29/27)
4.200 (63/15) FRD
3.909 (43/11) RDR
RDR x TR = 4.199 combined rear final drive.
TFD = 5.358

The total final drive TFD, is the diff ratio (front or rear+transfer) multiplied by the 37/29 (1.276) primary reduction inside the gearbox that occurs before the diffs.

Contrary to belief, converting one of these 4WD 'boxes to FWD will NOT change the final drive ratio, why the hell would it?

"and yes an evo 2 gearbox and evo 3 rear diff would work together using either the evo 2 or gsr transfer case"

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

More info on Gearbox Codes thanks to Dirk (agent Orange) on MMCNZ

Evo 1
WQGE: GSR
WQWE: GSR with front LSD
WQYE: RS
WQFE: RS with front LSD

Evo 2
WPGE: GSR
WPWE: GSR with front LSD
WPYE: RS
WPFE: RS with front LSD

Evo 3
UPGE: GSR
UPWE: GSR with front LSD
UPYE: RS
UPFE: RS with front LSD

Just re-posting some info that was lost in the great crash of '04/'05 below.

Evo 1 RS: WQYE, 3.909 ratio, no front lsd.
Evo 2: WPGE, 3.909 ratio, no front lsd.
Evo 2: WPWE, 3.909 ratio, viscous front lsd.
Evo 3: UPYE, 3.909 ratio, no front lsd.
Gsr: NRBE, 3.545 ratio, no front lsd.
Gsr: NRWE, 3.545 ratio, viscous front lsd.
Libero/Gsr: NQBE, 3.545 ratio, no front lsd.

I've had in pieces three different types of CD5A/CD5W Gsr/Libero gearbox and thought the differences may be of interest.

GSR NRBE, 3.545 ratio, no front lsd.
These gearboxes have what are know as 'paper' syncros on 2nd and 3rd gear, rather than the regular brass. These are very sensitive to oil type and will crunch badly with the wrong oil.
I've found Redline MTL works well but only once its fully warmed up.

GSR NRWE, 3.545 ratio, viscous front lsd.
These gearboxes have a 4 spider, viscous front lsd diff. The crownwheel is different too, so just having the lsd diff by itself is useless. They also require the use of the longer drivers side inner cv joint.
2nd gear is a double syncro unit identical to those found in Evo 2-3's
3rd gear syncro is a regular brass unit.
3rd and 4th gear use a larger hub and syncros than other 'boxes, its the same size as the 1st-2nd hub!
Because of this, Evo 3rd-4th shift forks WILL NOT FIT THESE GEARBOXES. The Evo 1st-2nd fork will still fit however.

Ive had a NRWE apart before. They don't have steel shift forks, and the ratios of all the gears is the same as regular GSR. As stated before, they do have a front viscous LSD.
Another difference is that they don't use 'paper' syncros on 2nd and 3rd like the more common NRBE variation, but rather all brass syncros with a double syncro setup on 2nd gear. 2nd gear is actually the exact same ratio and syncro as evo 2-3s.
Since NRWE use all regular brass syncros, and the viscous LSDs have their own sealed silicone oils, you can use just about any good gear oil.
Its the NRBE gsr 'boxes you have to be careful with oil selection. Most of these NRBE gearboxes are using the wrong type of oil for their 'paper' syncros on 2nd and 3rd gear causing crunching and people curse their supposedly f**ked syncros.

LIBERO NQBE, 3.545 ratio, no front lsd.
Found in GT Liberos, (and probably others) these are EXACTLY the same as the NRWE described in detail above, EXCEPT that they don't have a front lsd.





_________________________________________________

FWD MITSUBISHI CC LANCER RATIOS:

As per factory specifications manual.

MANUAL GEARBOXES
1500cc Carburettor: 3.363 (1st); 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th); 4.021 (Final); 3.083 (Reverse)
1800cc MPI: 3.363 (1st); 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th); 4.021 (Final); 3.083 (Reverse)

AUTO TRANSMISSION
1500cc Carburettor: 2.846 (1st); 1.581 (2nd); 1.000 (3rd); 3.600 (Final); 2.176 (Reverse)
1800cc MPI: 2.846 (1st); 1.581 (2nd); 1.000 (3rd); 0.685 (4th); 4.007 (Final); 2.176 (Reverse)

_________________________________________________


BATTLE OF THE FWD MITSUBISHI & PROTON GEARBOXES:
Proton Satria 1300cc: 3.363; 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th)
Proton Satria 1500cc: 3.363; 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th)
Proton Satria GTi / M21 1800cc DOHC: 3.083; 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th) - Code F5M222VRXE
Mitsu CC Lancer 1500cc Carburettor: 3.363 (1st); 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th); 4.021 (Final); 3.083 (Reverse)
Mitsu CC Lancer 1800cc MPI: 3.363 (1st); 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.777 (5th); 4.021 (Final); 3.083 (Reverse)
Proton Satria 1600cc/ Cyborg MIVEC CA4A/ CJ4A: 3.083; 1.947 (2nd); 1.285 (3rd); 0.939 (4th); 0.756 (5th); 4.592 (final)
At 100kmh revs should be about 3100rpm. The difference could be tyre size.
Cyborg MIVEC CJ4A: 3.071 (1st); 1.947 (2nd); 1.379 (3rd); 1.030 (4th); 0.767 (5th); 4.625 (final); 3.363 (Reverse)
At 100kmh your revs should be about 3160rpm (slightly higher due to higher final drive ratio) - This gearbox has different ratios throughout compared to others (except all 2nd gears are the same) - This one is made for pure acceleration provided you can get power to the ground

A CYBORG RS CJ4A with an ATS Final Drive Ratio of 5.000 will rev at 3416rpm at 100kmh. This gives quicker acceleration but lower top speed.

The top speed for a CJ4A is theoretically 237.32kmh.
With the ATS 5.00 ratio theoretical top speed is 215.86kmh.



_________________________________________________

FWD 1995 GS-T ECLIPSE 4G63 TURBO RATIOS:
Engine Displacement: 1997 cc.
Engine Location: FRONT
Engine Type: TURBO
Engine Max Horsepower: 210 bhp @ 6000 rpm
Engine Torque: 214 lb-ft @ 3000 rpm
Compression Ratio: 8.5 :1
Maximum engine speed: 7000 rpm
Transmission Type: MANUAL
Number of Gears: 5
Gear Ratio 1st: 3.09 :1
Gear Ratio 2nd: 1.83 :1
Gear Ratio 3rd: 1.22 :1
Gear Ratio 4th: 0.89 :1
Gear Ratio 5th: 0.74 :1
Final drive ratio: 4.15 :1
Driving wheels: FRONT
Car test weight: 3220 lb.
% weight on front wheels: 61 %

The GS-T Eclipse's ratios are totally different to any of the other Mitsu AWD or FWD specs above and interesting to see the first gear 3.09 slightly higher than the M21/GTi/Satria 1600/MIVEC boxes 3.08.. the rest of the gears 2nd through to 5th are lower than the rest of the FWD boxes. This would make it the strongest and 'best of both worlds' FWD (not AWD) box I have seen so far (determined by ratios) except for first the gear... but the difference in 1st gear is so small a difference its virtually negligible. The GS-T's final drive ratio is about in the medium of all the others as well giving this box a nice spread over all the FWD boxes thus far. Will have to see what rpm/speed per gear stats it generates versus a converted AWD VR4 box and stock FWD GLXi box

_________________________________________________

FWD GEARBOX COMPARISON IN PRACTICE
OK, for those who like to see numbers I have ran 7 calcs on the FWD boxes at max RPM @ 7000rpm with 215/40/17 wheels. The speed/rpm is not perfectly accurate, but all the info from each gearbox was entered using the same calculation method so the comparison against eachother is accurate to see roughly how different they perform to one another. Pics here: http://orion2001.gallery.netspace.net.au/FWD-RATIOS

I have put 5 out of the 7 boxes below for comparison. Stock 1.8, VR4 AWD/FWD, Eclipse GS-T, and CA4A Mivec Cybog, and TN Magna! .

Found out the Hyundai Sonata gearbox is a KM210 - Yep, the same FWD gearbox used on the TN-TP Magnas!
TN Magna 2600cc KM210 gearbox: 3.166; 1.833 (2nd); 1.240 (3rd); 0.896 (4th); 0.666 (5th); 3.166 (Reverse); 1.192 (transfer gear); 3.411 (final)

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Last edited by newy vr4 on 18 Jul 2011, 10:16, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 10:13 
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This the setup so far for the box im fitting:

GSR gearbox NRBE code (no LSD). Very good second hand condition. EVO III 1st/2nd hub and slider plus excellent condition double synchro 2nd gear synchro rings taken from a Evo 3 gearboxes. New seals all round.

Additional It will have a welded centre diff and a cusco evo 1, 1 way lsd fitted.

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Last edited by newy vr4 on 29 Jul 2011, 18:12, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 10:57 
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Whats the cost on a gearbox like the one you are getting?

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 11:08 
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not sure on the total cost yet but prob around $1500 with the lsd.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 12:28 
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Sounds like it will be a tough box. Before getting the box built, I would mock it up in the Cordia engine bay to make sure it fits, and to sort out which clutch, flywheel, ring gear, starter and driveshafts you are going to use. There is a lot of variation between different models.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 14:20 
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So do we know exactly which of the above will fit in the Cordia engine bay with only a little modification like you have done to the chassis?

I've got Brian's Cordia now so I've got an Evo engine not VR4 to play with...gearbox change is on the cards in the future.

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 15:07 
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like coop1er, i would say a F5M33/ KM215 would be your best bet. it is basically the FWD version of the CC GSR AWD box. but i havnt tried it yet, sooo.. not 100% sure.

you would have to do some measurements..

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 16:14 
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Your car: Hot house green 84 Cordia turbo unknown internals front mount Evo 3 turbo hi flowed time slips for an 11 second 1/4
So does any one have a tm magna or tm magna box drive shafts and shifter cables they wanna sell


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 16:48 
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Why do you want to change to a TM Magna box?

A F5M33 box from a V6 won't fit a 4G motor due to a different bellhousing pattern.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 17:06 
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Your car: Hot house green 84 Cordia turbo unknown internals front mount Evo 3 turbo hi flowed time slips for an 11 second 1/4
A tm is an 85 odd model no vs there


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:05 
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11scordia wrote:
A tm is an 85 odd model no vs there

Yes I know thankyou. That last part wasn't referring to your question.


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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:10 
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Quote:
coop1er

A F5M33 box from a V6 won't fit a 4G motor due to a different bellhousing pattern.


Mmmm, didn't think of that... well maybe u are able to fit another bellhousing to it, not sure.....

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PostPosted: 18 Jul 2011, 18:22 
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If they can be made to fit, then I would just buy a F5M33 from the states. Places like Shep, Teamrip and Jacks all do a basic rebuild for around US$800. Add in a couple of hundred for a core charge, plus whatever shipping costs, and may as well get them to fit a LSD. It would probably end up cheaper than getting all the same work done here.


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PostPosted: 20 Jul 2011, 13:46 
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equal length driveshaft fitted temporarily, i used a vr4 intermediate shaft and bracket with a cc gsr outer shaft. fits without any problems..

Using this box means i dont have to grind the intermediate bracket or bash in the sump which is good.

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PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011, 12:35 
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does anyone know the part number of a 4wd cordia gearbox???? I was reading on the dsm forums which believe it is W5M33-2-WPVF, i'm just interested..

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PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011, 14:48 
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The W5M33 boxes are too recent. I know that 4wd Tredias use a KM182, so it's probably the same in a Cordia.


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PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011, 16:17 
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My Service Manual (includes cordia/tredia and Space wagon) only lists km182 5 speed under 4wd vehicles, however my 4wd cordia is a 4 speed super shift box and i'm unsure of model number, but you're probably interested in 5 speed boxes only.


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PostPosted: 22 Jul 2011, 16:28 
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It would be good if you could put some details and pics of your car up mate.


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